爸爸媽媽，請你看見我！

05. 專訪

陳心怡

陳心怡
臺大政治系
東吳政研所碩士
資深媒體人、紀錄片導演，現為視界新聞網總編輯 

序幕

蔡沅達，2021 年滿18 歲，和時下年輕人並無二致，喜歡動漫、電玩、計算機科學，思考跳耀，表達真誠，毫不造作。談到內心深處時，整個人投入表達的力道是竭盡所能地讓你知道並理解他所有的想法。

多年前，他曾被精神科醫生診斷為社交隔離症狀，也就是一種比較傾向脫離現實感的情形。這標籤一貼上去，被心靈大地震撞擊的不只是沅達，還有母親郭素珍、父親蔡俊鵬；也幾乎在同一時間，沅達無心的隨手畫，被大人看見了。畫畫，其實早已默默的在沅達的生命中陪伴他度過無數的無聊、無力、憤怒，甚至是痛不欲生的迷惘童年，只是忙碌的大人從不知道他的祕密世界。童年的他，對於生命已經有了很大的問號。人，究竟為何而活？

在沅達口中的「Dr. Chen」——陳志成老師的鼓勵下，他把內心世界一幅一幅畫了下來。他一路用自己的生命探尋答案，身痛、心痛，午夜夢迴不知經歷千百次瀕臨滅頂的痛，這孩子究竟想要吶喊些什麼？想要告訴大人什麼？

這次採訪不是項容易的任務。語言使用是其一，沅達的思維邏輯往往是多方平行，若追不上，就很難理解他的心；其次，聰明的他，常常會用一種看戲的心，想看看大人如我，究竟要如何與他對話。為了能夠更貼近他的內心，我們採訪了三次，兩次是在午夜時分。夜深，總容易有更多的真實的聲音冒出來呈現內在的自己。

part 1：6/25( 五) 17:30 2 小時

事後回看第一次採訪，才明白這只是個暖身與開場，雖然採訪時間延續了兩個小時之久，但多半是在熟悉沅達的特質與表達方式。沅達善用英語表達，必須仰賴素珍翻譯，因此在採訪過程中，「母親」的參與是一種特別的橋梁。素珍原汁原味翻譯沅達所說以及我的提問，不帶任何母親的色彩做為濾鏡，沒讓翻譯加上母親的調料而失真。

沅達不只一次用「笨蛋」形容自己，也把媽媽扯進來：「我就是一個笨蛋，我是一個笨蛋媽媽的孩子。」但他對於媽媽的陪伴是心知肚明的，還問我：「妳要聽媽媽的故事嗎？這個媽媽，我可以講她的故事講到她會哭，妳們也會哭。」一般父母親聽到孩子這樣向外人表達，不一定受得了，而素珍不僅穩穩的聽，甚至，她對於兒子能夠盡情地表露自己，非常肯定且感動。沅達用畫冊裡的「系列三：通道」為例，說明自己長期的內在掙扎：門，是要開還是不開？「開門，進來，你真的要想一下，就像爸爸媽媽在小孩面前衝突，他們只想到自己，不會想到孩子，所以繼續打架，我無能為力，只能

在旁邊看。」沅達以門來表達自己內在的抉擇，是要往前還是轉身離去？是要面對或者視若無睹？是想嘗試新的可能，或者留在原地？

這孩子面對眼前充滿荊棘的世界，除了驚恐，同時也讓自己有了另一種（或多種）可能。他用「系列五：幸福之路」最後的一幅畫〈笑一笑〉告訴我：「爬山，遇到下雪，你要哭著回家嗎？」人，有權利生氣，可以哭、可以笑，裝笨的他，早已看透大人的世界，「笑笑，就過了。只要活著，就可以選擇開門、關門。」沅達看人生的方式出人意料地早熟，怎會是「笨蛋」？

每一扇門都是一個通道，也都是無限可能。

part 2：6/25( 五) 22:00 1 小時30 分

然而沅達究竟是如何走過痛苦？開門與關門的關鍵為何？因為想更深入他的內心，所以在同一天深夜，我們進行了第二場對話。

夜裡的沅達，很快進入了回憶隧道。他記得爸媽最常掛在嘴邊的話就是「沒錢」「工作很忙」，可是

他卻又清楚的知道，這些都是大人的藉口，「他們每天做工，根本都是仆街（廣東話，意指完蛋了），爸爸媽媽不知道我當個笨蛋，是為了等他們。」

兒時的沅達聽見爸爸媽媽衝突，只能哭泣，一路成長以來，內心的脆弱與害怕無處傾訴，沅達只能想辦法麻痹自己的感覺；但越是這樣想，腦子裡的聲音反而越多。後來，一個人的沅達，也不再是一個人，因為內在很多聲音湧現陪伴他，或說，困擾他。

「談談這些聲音？」我問。沅達深深嘆了一口氣後，突然語氣嚴厲，要求在身邊的媽媽離開。

●場景一：媽媽不在場

沅達這突如其來的動作，讓空氣瞬間凝固。「叫媽媽走，是很痛苦的。」話一說完，沅達換了一個人，雙眼睜得大大，眼神變得銳利憤怒，他像是跟自己對話，而非回應我的採訪。

困擾他多年聲音，就是死。24 小時都想死的他，不斷來回交戰：「我跟自己講，你去死啊！死就死啊，沒什麼；但另一個聲音又說，你得活著。」沅達像是在控訴什麼，連珠砲似地直陳內在所想，但他沒有失控，談了約莫十分鐘後，回神了，他把自己整理好，再度請媽媽回到採訪線上。

沅達特別叮嚀我：「這事不要放在書裡，讓他們看我，還是一個好孩子，不然別人真的會以為我怎麼了。」

●場景二：倒帶重來——媽媽在場

「我一定要在媽媽面前再表達一次。」他說。沅達的父母在他三歲時離婚， 雖然不明白大人的決定，也不知道發生什麼事，但他知道從那之後，爸媽關係已不同，世界也不一樣。

「我知道，陪我在一起的人，一定是我自己，還有老天爺。老天爺有多種，也有死神，死神跟我在一起好幾年，所以我常會說自殺啊。後來我頭腦安靜了，這些聲音沒了，就整個好了。」雖然談的都是想死的自己，但這次在媽媽面前談，沅達語氣緩和多了，他不想讓媽媽擔心，也不想欺騙媽媽自己沒事，「剛剛我要媽媽離開，就在想要講給媽咪聽嗎？我想，還是要讓媽媽知道。」他認為每個人多少都有過想死的念頭，但是，「如果我用自己的手殺自己，對嗎？」沅達內在的聲音不斷來回辯證，就像不斷穿越每一扇門、每一扇開開關關的門。沅達意識到這段訪談一直在死裡打轉，他斷然的下了指令：「不要被我影響，不要有自殺的想法，不要放棄自己。走，我們去別的地方！」

part 3：7/16( 五) 22:30 3 小時

三週後，我們和沅達再次約了專訪，這次爸爸俊鵬也加入。這對沅達來說，是一件大事，也是一個重要的里程碑。出版畫冊，不是為了讓讀者認識無師自通電繪的沅達多麼有才華，而是透過畫冊出版，再度讓一家三口重新回到家人的愛，也讓長年孤單的沅達回到父母的懷抱，一起面對彼此曾經的艱難。

俊鵬在我們面前簡單且含蓄地表示，很高興有這麼多人參與沅達的生命，也讓他對孩子的內心有更深的了解。據說，在視訊之外的俊鵬感動地淚流不止，身為父親能看到兒子成長與蛻變，俊鵬的喜悅難以言喻。系列一的〈痛〉，是雷電交接的雨天。雨天對沅達來說，是很重要的象徵，是一種很深的孤絕，寒意從內心深處湧現，而沅達可以躲在雨的背後哭泣，如此一來，別人就不知道自己在哭，「你可以說下雨啊，或是沙子跑進眼睛啊。」

即使無助的沅達偷偷哭泣，但他始終相信在情緒隧道的盡頭，會有一道白色的光，即便幽微，希望仍在。「很痛，但沒關係，痛就痛，也因為痛，表示我還活著。」沅達這次娓娓道來自己的痛，不再是深淵，而是多了一些溫柔與光明；且他看見父母親離異，痛的不只是孩子，他們自己也很痛。

沅達分享了許多年前一個朋友的故事。在美國的朋友也不斷想尋死，時常拿著手槍頂著自己，扣板機一按下，就是生死一瞬的差別，沅達能理解他，但沒有跟著朋友在裡頭打轉，因為他更想看清楚自己與生命究竟所為何來。

我怕也不怕死……我想看進去，就像我畫出的每一幅畫。

透過畫作〈意識的擴張〉與〈從不孤單〉這兩幅畫，沅達想表達就是這種不放棄「活著」背後的思維。人的情緒與感受有很多，你是要選擇哪一種？而當你以為自己是孤零零的一個人時，抬頭看看星空，就會明白天空繁星燦爛，從不孤單。

第三次採訪中，沅達仍真實自我揭露黑暗面，但也多了不輕言放棄的意志力。一個18 歲的孩子的成長歷程是這麼衝撞，即使傷痕累累，可是他仍笑笑的告訴我：「24 小時的聲音很累人，但這些不快樂的事，就是要經歷的，人生就像在走隧道，你是要放棄、坐下來，還是繼續走到隧道口，迎接光？」

尾聲

對於那些曾經霸凌他的老師與同學，可有話想說？

「以前，我用眼睛看他們，他們會很害怕，但是現在這火已經燒得差不多，我一點都不在意他們。我在意的不是身體的強弱，而是我的腦筋是否清楚，這才是支持我繼續往前走的力量。」沅達不斷強調，每個人的痛苦都不同，每個人也都不一樣，重點在於自己如何看世界、看自己，沒有人是完美的，「但你要從日常中學習，才會變得越來越好。」

這是一個18 歲孩子的成長故事，千瘡百孔的生命歷程，最令人欽佩的無疑是那無限的能力。沅達透過19 幅畫、19 面鏡子、19 種生命難題（甚至更多），但他無畏無懼。跟著他，我們也能重新拾回初生之犢與生俱足的勇氣。

05. Interview
by Chen Hsinyi

Taro Chua, like all youngsters, turned 18 years old in 2021. He likes animation, electronic gaming and computer science. He expressed sincerely without any pretentiousness. In expressing what were deep inside him, he would do whatever he could to let you know and

comprehend all of his thoughts.

Years ago, he was being diagnosed with symptom of Social Isolation by a Psychiatrist. This label brought about unimaginable mental impact not only to Taro, but also to his mom Vanessa and dad Alvin; and it was at this juncture that Taro's casual drawings were discovered by the adults. Drawing, has long silently accompanied Taro in his dealing with boredom, helplessness, anger and even his extremely painful and perplexed childhood, it is just that the busy adults have never knew about his secret world.

Since childhood, Taro already had a big question mark towards life. What's the point of living?

Under the encouragement of "Dr Chen", as how Taro addresses Teacher Chen Zhicheng, Taro began to draw and paint his inner world, one after another. He uses his life in search for answers. In bodily pain and heartache, during the silent night, he had experienced thousands of times in extreme pain: What exactly is this child trying to shout out? What does he want to

tell the adults?

This was not an easy interview. Besides the language differences, Taro's thinking logic is usually multi-dimensional and parallel at the same time. If you can't catch up, it would be difficult for you to fully understand him. In addition, the intelligence in him drove him to watch adults (like me), to see how adults go about holding a conversation with him. In order to get closer and deeper with Taro, we did three interviews and two of them were held during midnights. It is easier to get more genuine voices from deep within to emerge during night time.

Part 1: 25th June 2021 17:30 - 19:30 (2hours)

When we re-visit our first interview, we realized that it was just an appetizer. Although the interview took 2 hours, most of the time were spent on familiarizing Taro's unique way of expression. Taro was au fait in English and thus requires Vanessa's interpretation and translation to mandarin. Therefore, during the interview, the participation of "mother" was indeed a special kind of "bridge". Vanessa translated our questions and Taro's answers in full authenticity, without any alteration or filtering as a mother.

In numerous occasions, Taro used "stupid" to describe himself and in doing so, he included his mom: "I am stupid, I am a child of a stupid mother". However, when it comes to the companionship of his mother, Taro was fully aware and even asked me: "Do you want to hear about my mom's story? This mother, I can tell her story until she cry, you all will also cry."

Unlike most parents who may find it hard to accept when they hear how their child express themselves to outsiders. Vanessa not only listened attentively, she recognized and was utterly moved by the fact that her child was able to express himself freely and fully.

Taro cited the [The Path] in the third series of his album, as an example to describe his prolong inner struggles: Door, to open or not to open? "Open the door? Come in? You really got to give it a thought; it's like parents fighting in front of the child, the parents will only think about themselves and never for the child. That's why they kept on fighting and I could only helplessly watch by the side."

In facing this thorny world in front of his eyes, this child was terrified, but at the same time, allowed himself to have different possibilities. He cited the last painting [Just Smile] from series five [Happiness Path] and told me: "When you meet snowy weather while mountain climbing, do you cry and go home?" Everyone has the rights to be angry, to cry, or to laugh. Pretending to be stupid, Taro has long seen through the world of the adults. He continued: "We get past after each smile. As long as we are alive, we can choose to open or close the doors." Taro's perspective towards life was unexpectedly mature, so how can he be "stupid"?

Part 2: 25th June 2021 22:00 - 23:30 (1.5hours)

How exactly did Taro overcome his pain? What is the essence of the open and close doors? In order to get deeper into his inner world, we proceeded on to our second conversation on the same night.

Taro, in the night, speedily went into his memory lane.

He recalled his parents habitual words were "no money", "busy at work", but he knew these were excuses of the adults, "they work everyday, but basically are pok - gai (Cantonese word describing prone onto the streets akin to penniless) , dad and mom have no idea that I pretended to be stupid was for the purpose of waiting for them.

During his childhood, Taro can only cry whenever he heard conflict between his dad and mom. Whilst growing up, Taro has no avenue to address the fragility and fear in his inner world. Hence, Taro can only think of ways to numb his feelings. But the more in doing so, the more voices came into his mind. In the end, the lonely Taro was no longer alone, because there were emerging voices accompanying him, or rather harassing him.

"Talk about these voices?" I asked.

Taro's voice turned serious after sighing and requested his mom who was beside him to

excuse herself.

●Scene 1: Mom was not at scene.

This sudden and unexpected move by Taro froze the air instantly.

"Asking mom to leave, is very painful". At this juncture, Taro seemed to change into another person. His eyes were wide open, the expression in his eyes became incisive and angry. He seemed to be talking to himself rather than responding to our interview.

The voice that has been harassing him for many years is "death". On a 24 hours warring basis: "I tell myself, you go and die, die only, no big deal; but another voice said, you have to keep living". Taro seemed to be accusing about something, firing like a rapid cannon, while describing his most inner thought. But he did not lose control. After about 10 minutes of conversation, Taro regained and recomposed himself and asked for his mom to be back into the interview.

Taro specifically remind me: "Don't put this issue in the book, let them see that I am still a good kid, else people may wonder what had happened to me."

●Scene 2: Rewind Retake–Mom at scene

"I must express myself in front of my mom one more time." Taro said.

Taro's parents divorced while he was three years old. Although he cannot understand the adults decision or what happened, but he knew from that moment onwards, the relationship between dad and mom were no longer the same, the world is no longer the same anymore.

"I know, the only person who can accompany me is myself, and also God. There are many types of God, including the God of Death, this God of Death has been with me for years, thus I often say I wanted to kill myself. Subsequently, my mind became quiet, these voices disappeared, everything then became well." Although the conversation was about the self who wanted to die, but in the presence of the mother, Taro's tone was moderated as he does not want to worry the mother, and at the same time does not want to deceive the mother. "I asked my mom to leave just now was because I was procrastinating whether I should let my mom hear it, I guess, we should let my mom knows."

Taro opined that everyone more or less have the thought of dying, but "If I kill myself with my own hands, is it right?" The endless debate of Taro's inner voices is like walking through each and every door, door that opens and closes.

When Taro realize that the conversation was going in circles, he decisively issue an order:

"Do not be affected by me, do not have suicidal thoughts, do not give up yourself. Let's go, let's go to some other place!"

Part 3: 16th July 2021 (Friday) 22:30 - 01:30 (3 hours)

Three weeks later, we had another interview with Taro again, this time involving his dad, Alvin. This is a mega deal for Taro and also an important milestone. The intention behind the publication of the album is not to showcase Taro's natural flair and talent in drawing, but through this publication, a family of three can once again return to the love of a family. This allow the lonely Taro to return to the parents' embracement, and together, they can address the difficulties and hardship each of them had went through for one another.

Alvin humbly expressed his joy and gratitude for the overwhelming participation from so many people in Taro's life journey. At the same time, Alvin was able to gain deeper insights and understanding of Taro's inner world. We later gathered that Alvin was moved to tears when he witness Taro's growing up and transformation. His joy was beyond words.

The setting of [Pain] from series one, resembles a thundering rainy day. Rain, to Taro, is an important emblem, a sign of deep isolation and emergence of coldness from deep within, and Taro can hide and cry in the rain. As such, no one will know he is crying, "You can say is the rain, or sand grains went into the eyes!".

Despite helplessly crying alone, Taro still believe at the end of the emotional tunnel, there is a ray of white light, regardless how dim, hope is still there.

Taro shared a story of his friend from many years ago. This American friend kept wanting to die, and often find himself pointing a handgun to himself; the difference between life and death is just a matter of a pull of the trigger. Taro understood him but did not entangle with this friend, because Taro is more interested in gaining clarity in himself and his life purpose.

"I am afraid but also not afraid of death... I want to look inside, exactly like how I draw each of my drawings. " Taro's tone was full of affirmation. He said that everyone can die at anytime, but did he/she get/achieve what he/ she want? Otherwise, why choose to die at this particular point in time? As for those voices that lingered in his mind, Taro opined that, one has to push oneself to the limit, develop and expand capabilities to the limit, one can then break the opposing polarities of the voices, and accepting one's state. Therefore, whenever I felt low, this old friend from the dark will appear. Taro will still ask: "Can I do more? Make myself to live better?"

Taro accurately expressed the meaning behind these two art pieces: [Expansion of Consciousness] and [Never Alone], that is the never give up "living" attitude. We all have emotions and feelings, which one do you want to choose? Whenever you feel being alone, look up at the starry sky, you will then understand that amongst the brilliancy of the countless stars, you are never alone.

In our third interview, Taro continued to disclose his dark side to me truthfully, but this

time, his will of "never give up" has intensified. The growing up of this 18 year old child was bumpy and full of scars, but he can still smilingly say to me: "The 24 hours of voices is very tiring, but this kind of unhappiness, is for us to experience, life is like walking a tunnel; Do you want to give up, sit down, or continue the walk till the end of the tunnel and embrace the light?"

Epilogue

Do you have anything to say to those teachers or schoolmates who have bullied you?

"I used to use my eyes to stare at them and they will become frightened; but now this fire has more or less subsided and I don't give a damn about them. What I meant is not the strength of the physical body, but the clarity of my thinking; this is the strength that keeps me going."

Taro kept emphasizing that pain differs from person to person, and each person is not the same, the crux is how one view the world, view oneself, no one is perfect, "But you need to keep learning on a daily basis so that you can become better."

This is a growing up story of a 18 year old child, a life journey riddled with scars, and the most admirable part is un-doubtlessly the infinite ability. Although there were 19 paintings, 19 mirrors, 19 life challenges (or even more), Taro was fearless. Follow Taro, we can also regain our native courage in full.